Texas Holdem Poker

safesoundz · Member Joined: May 24, 2005 Posts: 27

Hi.

Folding is the weakest part of my game.

I'll get say A-K UTG and raise pre flop to 4BB and get about 3 callers. Now I completley miss the flop and I bet again and get called again. At the turn i bet 4BB again and get called. The river card comes up with a blank, Now is it wise for me to check at the River or go in with a strong bet to bluff my way to the pot.

I assume at least one of these three has connected.

Now when should I lay this down. I'll find that some times I'll bet and get called all the way by bottom pair and my ace or king never comes.

If i was late position i may have folded at the river following a call.

How would you play this? Being out of position with strong hole cards but nothing to go on.

Thanks for any advice

webmaster · Site Admin Joined: Nov 26, 2003 Posts: 643

I'm not sure that folding is your biggest problem. Yes it's an issue, along with looking to see flops with marginal hands which get you into trouble.

From your description you're playing style has simply been identified by a good player and your weaknesses exploited. Good players don't just look to play high stakes. Often you can make good money by trawling the low limit stuff picking off easier targets more often. Return is less, but likelyhood of return is more.

Most people that play $0.1/0.2 or $0.25/0.50 will play high hole cards, Ace with anything, and card catch or attempt a bluff if they miss. First mistake was to raise with AK. We know you're playing high cards usually with 1 ace because of the table level you're on. You raised pre-flop so told everyone you had a really good kicker (K or Q). Depends on your table position but if you're in early position then you should simply call the big blind. If, as is likely in these low limit games someone raises then re-raise hard or even allin with AK pre-flop. If they fold, good, if not you can still hope for a hit or may even find yourself up against AQ or AJ.

My point is that to play against you all your opponent had to do was recognise that most players at this level are playing the high cards, and if the flop is rags (probably a hit for someone not playing high cards) then bottom pair will be enough. If you'd had AA your second bet would have been much larger than your first. You didn't say how big it was, so I'd guess same or less. That's a tell that you missed the flop which is likely anyway with a low card board. If you feel a need to bluff you'd be better off checking, your opponent with bottom pair raises, then coming over the top. That would be a clear signal overcards especially at low levels like these (bluffing is usually very straightforward at these levels usually taking the form as you described of "how much will be enough to knock him off my hand even though I'm sure he has the better cards").

Fold the missed AK, or if your really want to bluff do it as above to look like you have AA - overbet needs to be large, say 60% of your stack. That size bet doesn't look like a bluff because your opponent will believe you'll be allin after the river but you're not allin now so must be trying to suck him in.

Great question safesoundz - so many possibilities, I think you may have been read like a book but don't realise. Don't let that put you off, the game is a long learning curve and I've had the same questions as you in the past. The need to separate your mind from saying "AK, AK, AK, AK, it's a big hand, hoorah, AK, AK" pre-flop to making the correct play post flop can be difficult.

Consider this, post flop you have less than a 50% chance of improving, so chances are you're going to end up with A high. Step away from it and move on to the next hand. Look to do to your opponents what you describe happenning to you by playing the reality at a point in time and not what you think cards like AK should bring (chasing). Card chasing anything other than 4 to a flush or an open ended straight in limited circumstances is always a losing strategy long term.

ahhyeaa · Junior Member Joined: Feb 16, 2006 Posts: 7

Hey safesoundz, these are good topics your posting. I think your problem is your betting style rather than folding. From what I've read in a couple of your threads you insist on betting the flop, turn and river with moderate bets. A good player is really going to make your life miserable. To me your bets are to telling and give you less options in playing the hand.

In this case If you made a bet like this at the starting position and you get 3 people to call I would be very worried. You almost got to assume someone has a pocket pair or 2 other high cards like yourself to make this call(assuming your playing against descent players). It also depends what your chip stacks are like. If someone has a big stack he is more likely to gamble with suited or connected cards also. If it was a flop of low cards with no paint, no possible flush or straight I would try to end the hand as quickly as possible. I would bet the flop big and bet atleast twice my original bet before the flop,(you betting 4x the BB again is slightly less than 1/3 of the pot) or vice versa check the flop then bet big on the turn. If I got called I would check and fold to any other bets. If it was a different flop where it looked like it might have helped someone I would have checked and seen what they bet. If it was something big I would probably fold if it was something small I would reraise, if I got called I would check out and fold to anyother bets.

In your scenario your betting the same amount after the flop and turn as you did pre flop tells me you didn't improve and if I called 4x the BB before the flop I'm more than likely going to call it again after the flop and more than likely reraise. Your setting yourself up to lose control of the hand by being reraised or sucked out by a lesser hand. A good player is going to force you to make a decision somewhere along the line.

I agree with playing the A,K like you did pre flop but the main difference is in this situation I'm assuming I'm behind to a pocket pair if 3 people called this kind of bet. Good players aren't going to play to chase cards most of the time. They last as long as dogs chasing cars. Your betting is very telling and dosen't put enough pressure for the other's to make a decision. I'm not saying go all in. If I get outplayed I'm not ashamed to fold but if I'm going to play a hand I'm going to play it aggressively to atleast get some kind of tell. I think you would be a lot better of to make fewer more aggressive bets rather than continually throwing out half-ass bets.

MrMuckets · Member Joined: Jan 28, 2006 Posts: 31 Location: USA

As a rule of thumb when holding AK if i miss the flop i fold.

dolson42 · Junior Member Joined: Jun 07, 2004 Posts: 5

I am starting to think of A-K as the Anna Kournikova hand (and it is starting to be called that in some of the games I play).......

It looks good - but very seldom wins.

I would do like you did - bet 3 or 4 BB pre-flop - but if I don't hit the flop - really think of checking and folding.

It is a tough hand to let go - but really tough to bluff out with.

onemore · Posted: Wed May 10, 2006 3:14 am Post subject:

Good point dolson42. I usually raise with AK but not by much, say 2-3BB. If I don't hit an A or a K on the flop I fold.

bsheck · Newbie Joined: Dec 27, 2005 Posts: 4

If I whiff the flop with A-K I would lead for 1/2 the pot against 1 or 2 opponents depending on the texture of the flop (a rainbow flop, uncoordinated, low cards). Three players is too many to bet into however as it is likely someone hit the flop.

Now, when you bet the flop and you get called it means the person likes his or her hand. You bet once to try and pick up the pot. On the turn, unless you improve, check and probably fold to a bet. Don't put more money into the pot. You're not going to get the person to fold a better hand.

littlegrave · Posted: Sat May 27, 2006 6:36 am Post subject:

As long as you're in a bad position you have to check and if someone makes a large bet, then the right move is to fold. If it is cheap to see the turn, then call it. Always calculate your odds. This will help you in decisions like that.

I think the way you play this hand should depend on your opponents. If they're bad player who never fold the a top pair or something like that, then you have no chance and you'll be called all the way to the river.

ROYALKNIGHT · Senior Member Joined: May 27, 2006 Posts: 57

depending on my chip stack and if it gonna take me out the tourney. many times i see flop and my hand is strong only to get beat to a set. 2s or 3s or 7s.

dovla · Junior Member Joined: May 27, 2006 Posts: 14

AK suited is a very powerfull hand.. poker proffesionals say that they love much more that hand than QQ.. (i saw it on poker channel) Smile

but i will always fold AK in multiway preflop (with big raises) ..
the most important thing for me is to make a good raise on preflop with AK ... (to lay down hands like K10, KJ or Ace with lower hand)..
if i don't hit something on flop - i try to bluff with good bet.. if i'm reraised i'll lay down always...

cliffordz · Newbie Joined: Sep 30, 2006 Posts: 3

i would do what MrMuckets has already suggested, if i hit something on the flop then id stay in, otherwise id have to fold

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