Texas Holdem Poker

bilulu · Newbie Joined: Feb 24, 2007 Posts: 1

I don't remember the real situation but i invented one to explain the problem (The question).

That was a game play No Limit.
Let say: there are 3 players involved:
A has a pot of 100
B has a pot of 500
C has a pot of 2500

A has in hand: Q(Spades), J(Clubs)
B has in hand: K and Q (Diamonds)
C has in hand: J(Diamonds), Ace(Spades)

The Flop: 5(Hearts), J(Spades) and Q(Hearts)
C goes 100 to force A to go all-in (if he wants)
A goes all-in
B calls 100

then came the turn K(Spades) and the river 9(Hearts)
C decided to go 500 to obliged B to go all-in
B with only a double pair and afraid of the straight decided to fold.

A won against C then took the whole pot.
My question is the following.
B fold only against the attack of C, so shouldn't he have win against A as he called the all-in of A.
Here you have:
A: QQJJK
B: KKQQJ
C: JJAKQ
it is clear that if B had called he would have win the pot but he didn't fold against C. So what happens in that case?

Thank you very much.

webmaster · Site Admin Joined: Nov 26, 2003 Posts: 643

Bilulu - welcome to the forum.

This is a good example of the power of a large stack, and it's proper use in an endgame situation.

The answer to your question is that once you fold that's it no matter what you had you have no further claim to the pot. That would be true if you held four aces and folded. The game doesn't go into second and third place what if situations.

In your actual example player B would be foolish to fold 2 pair because it's statistically unlikely that he would lose and a mathematical call based on the cards that are out and the pot odds of the situation. While we don't know who had the blinds or what their value was we do know that after round 1 the pot holds $300. C adds $500 taking the pot to $800. B only has $400 left at this point but if he puts it in his return is $1200. So mathematically it's a call if his chances of winning are greater than 1 in 3.

At the point of being put allin he's probably ahead (only possibilities out their being hidden sets or runner runner straight). Also he has 6 outs to a Full House should either a King or Queen come out on the River. The example in a 3 hand situation such as this is a certain call.

One of the tools that would help in this situation is HoldemPokerCalc my proprietary odds calculator which is better than anything else on the market because mine is the only one that can work out opponent odds without seeing the opponents cards. As you can see from the homepage poll, most people think it's the best odds calculator on the market even though right now it still doesn't yet have the all important Pot Odds calculation discussed here.

Buckshot-WOPPT · Newbie Joined: Feb 25, 2007 Posts: 3

As a side note, not real happy with the move made by C here.

It's a rookie mistake in general to bet into a dry side pot without holding the nuts. Basically if there is no money in the side pot, you are putting in money into an empty pot, at least he wasn't totally bluffing, but I don't consider a pair of J's a big enough hand to bet into an empty side pot with.

You won't see many pros doing this, the main reason is that apart from the fact that there's little equity in it, the side pot has nothing in it, you don't know that the all in player doesn't have you crushed if you only have something like a pair of J's, generally you'll see good players check all the way to the river, unless they have an absolute monster. This maximises the chance that you'll eliminate the all in player (which in this case would have happened, by player C betting, he has now allowed player A to chip up and stay alive), your whole aim in a tournament is to eliminate players to get closer to the money.

There are exceptions though, and some can argue that with the chip count as this was with C in a totally dominant position that he felt making sure that player B didn't close the gap was more important than eliminating player A, however he's taking a big risk if player B calls this, he's going to be even further chipped up. To me it looks pretty plainly like a rookie move by player C who probably doesn't have a good handle on tournament strategies.

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